Leica Camera's Vice President of Marketing Christian Erhardt talked to PDN Gear Guide:
"People always forget when looking at the camera the fact that it's actually a medium format solution with a sensor that is 56% larger than a full-frame 35mm digital SLR, many people have been comparing it to SLR cameras and there are certain features (on the S2) that just cannot be compared to a DSLR."
He went further to comment on the Leica S2 AF system:
"Speed was a primary concern when we designed this product," he said. "We believe we will have the fastest autofocus in the medium format category, the fastest frame rate, and the fastest image processing."
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14 Comments
Like they didn’t see the criticism coming. I’m not surprised by the price. I think those who are complaining are the one’s who will never come close to actually buying it. They’re subconsciously mad that they can’t afford it.
But then again Leica is competing with Hassy and other medium format makers so……
I think Leica should prepare for a huge firestorm if the image quality or quality control isn’t worth $26,000US (Anyone remember the Pro DCS-14n/c and M8 firestorms?)
The body is hugely expensive by most people’s standards, but the lenses are not. People need to get a grip and stop taking these things seriously. I would have loved to use one, and in fact I can remember talking to Leica folks over the years for a medium format camera – and I wasn’t the only one.
Digital makes this camera costly, not ‘Leica ego’ or anything else. Assuming its a success, the S2 and Leica’s legacy will be how the R system was sacrificed. Perhaps because of the global economy – but either way – there still remains no outlet in Leica’s catalog for digital R use, and that has to leave many disappointed – including myself. It’s said that ‘a suitable solution will come’, but by then, many may opt for other choices.
I can afford it but I’m not an idiot. My problem is I work in the IT industry and have spent decades watching products like this become nearly useless in 2 years. Whether Leica likes it or not, the fact is, they’ve entered a new industry . Moore’s law applies now. Leica would have been better off getting people hooked and then steadily and quickly increased functionality and price. Think Apple. Now if they had sold themselves as an expensive lens company who also did bodies, that would have been different. They didn’t.
I feel like Leica was smart in creating a camera for medium format. And as much as I hate to see the end of the R system, I get it. Imagine if they released an R10 with a far superior sensor to the M8 in the same price range. M sales would suffer greatly. As a business plan I can see how this buys them some time to work out the full frame sensor issues for an M9 and solidly compete in a market that has seen nothing like the S2. Fashion Photographers are going to be in heaven with this camera!
The price of the S2 is quite high, but it does compare with Haselblaud. From photographers I’ve spoken with, the ones that are disappointed seemed to feel the delay in announcing price got their hopes up for a less expensive camera and for many this will be out of their price range. The transition to digital has been a challenge for all. Just before the digital craze really took off, an M body and 2 lenses cost about the same as a new M8. I also feel Leica is making sound investment with the S2 as its technology will be in house and trickle down, hopefully lowering costs and adding to the M quality and other cameras to come.
Take the price of a full frame Sony A900. Since S2 sensor is 56% larger then lets double the cost of all the sub-contracted parts making up an S2, including sensor. So if the Sony A900 can be profitably sold for $3K US (actually $2699 on USA SonyStyle site) then the S2 could be sold for double that, say $6K US. Since its a Leica you might want an extra premium so sell it at 3 time the price of the A900 = $9k US.
The processor and internal memory do not cost 56% more just because the sensor is 56% larger. Physically the body is approx the same size as a Sony A900 with the grip attached. So the cast metal body is not going to cost you much more. The internal electronics are not going to cost you much more than those found in the A900. Maybe the focusing system will need to handle more current – Ok double the cost of the A900 focusing system. The viewfinder Prism, shutter and Mirror Box will cost more – for arguements sake say double.the cost of making the A900 equivalents. So the sub-contracted bits and pieces of the S2 could cost “UP TO” double the cost of the bits and pieces to make a Sony A900. Again if the A900 can be profitably sold for LESS THAN 3K US then selling the S2 for between $20K US and $30K US is kinda hard to swallow. BTW love the battery charger price – try justifying that one by saying the sensor is 56% larger. Wonder what the price of the S2 will be on eBay when the next generation 30+MP Canon IDS MK4 and Nikon D4X and Sony ????? come out in 2010.
@ just a thought:
I guess you are a real specialist in business. You are not? Just let me tell you what I as a simple business administrator thiunk about.
The sensor of the A900 is build into 3 popular DSLR systems (Sony A900, Nikon D3 and D3x). So lets assume developement costs of 3 mio$ for the sensor. Now they (Nikon, Sony) sell 50,000 a year of each camera, then they need 150,000 units of sensors + 3000 pcs. spare. I have to say that I do not know the real sales but just show waht I mean: Leica plans to sell 10,000 cameras a year. And they had to pay the 3 millions. Or, lets say 5millions because its a very special developement. So 1th gen cam will be for 2 years. 250$ each only developement costs.
Futher, calculate the developement costs at Leica. Nikon, Sony, Canon, Pentax. They already have the AF, the have the mirrorboxes, they have imagin electronics – Leica did not. I do not remember exactly but Dr. Kaufman told the press that they needed 25 mio$ for develope the system? So 1250$ each, just for developement cots, right?
And finally, the solutions in the S2 are often much better then Nikon, Canon, Sony and so on.
So this price is absolutely ordinary, if you just think about the facts.
cheers
In addition:
30Mpix with the scrapy DSLR Lenses of Canon will not bring an advantage. Ok, lets say they bring for the people that build the CF Cards, PCs, RAM, Harddisks…
leica is on its last leg now. ultra expensive camera with short half-life. big mistake.
I am doing a lot of food photography at the moment as well as other personnal works.
On my next comission, i will use the canon 5D with prime lenses side by side with the S2. .. and judge form the results..
If the S2 is good enough.. I could keep it for years without having to worry about futur upgrades.;
Luminous Landscapes printed some Landscapes shot with both a high end Canon P&S (G series just cant remember which one) and a Hasselblad MF. Large prints. Did not tell anyone which camera took which. Most could not tell. So from that take a studio shot with a FF Sony A900 and the (FFx1.56) S2. I doubt that most (if not all and without a magnifying glass) could tell which camera took which shot when printed.
A Sony A900 has 24.6 effective megapixles. To get “double” that resolution you would need approx “FOUR” times larger or approx 100 megapixels. So that the S2 is 56% larger than full frame gives the S2 little to no advantage over a full frame camera like the Sony A900.
If there is only an insignificant advantage for the S2 over the Sony A900, then why spend up to 30K US for the S2 body when you can get a Sony A900 for up to 3K US. Dont forget you are not buying one body, you need TWO – one for backup. So you drop up to $60K on the S2 bodies and nobody can tell whether the shot was made using the S2 or using the Sony A900 body priced at up to $3K US.
With Zeiss lenses avaliable for the Sony A900 and newer Sony lenses I doubt that the Leica lens performance will be much if any better or “faster focusing” and if there is the slight performance increase I doubt that it will show in print.
Check out http://www.luminous-landscape.com
The one area where the S2 might shine is no AA filter infront of the sensor, but it probably has one – “not sure”. That can be evened out by removing the AA filter from a Sony A900 or Canon 5DMK2 or Canon 1DS Mk3 or Nikon D3X. A shop called Life Pixlel can do it for a few hundred US$. They are known for their infra-red conversions.
If you feel that dropping up to $60 for two S2 bodies is “ordinary” and money well spent, then power to you. I’d rent a Sony A900 or Canon 5DMK2 and take same shots along with the S2 and print – see if your photo editor can tell which camera was used. Maybe spending only up to $6K for two Sony A900s or two Canon 5DMk2s might provide you with $54K+ extra dollars for an amazing glass collection.
Oh, to “me” how much did it cost to develop the battery charger for the S2 since I am clearly not a business specialist and you are and you think that the price of the S2 is “ordinary”.
As a business specialist do you think it makes much business sense to spend tons of money to bring out a camera which will have extremely low sales volume.? Especially considering the present economic environment – sure photogs can lease or get a loan to spend up to $60K on a couple of camera bodies with an estimated life of say two years (Moores Law plays here as these are basically handheld computers with a built in webcam). Banks are freely loaning money to anyone and everyone lately are they not? The economy is tanking all over, taking with it advertising revenue. The market (if there is one) for the S2 is likely high end studios. If they are in business then they already have enough MF gear Why go begging the bank manger to spend between $60K and $100K for a couple of bodies and a few lenses when they already have a working MF solution.Does not make business sense to me but then who am I, and so am asking you (me).
Seems to me that the guy Leica previously hired from Best Buy to run Leica, had a better solution – build up the base of lower priced Leica camera users which would provide a migration path and development funding for more expensive Leica cameras (like the Canikon folks). That person no longer runs Leica (check Google to find out why) and instead the world got a digital Leica for over $20K but under $30K US at a time when folks all around the world are talking about a world wide Depression. But then again I am not a real business specialist as me stated.
Found the article, plse checK:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml
I will quote from their results:
“In every case no one could reliably tell the difference between 13X19″ prints shot with the $40,000 Hasselblad and Phase One 39 Megapixel back, and the new $500 Canon G10. In the end no one got more than 60% right, and overall the split was about 50 / 50, with no clear differentiator. In other words, no better than chance.
In fact it was the H2 system’s narrower depth of field that occasionally was the only clear give-away. Some viewers eventually figured out that the prints with the narrower depth of field were from medium format, while other photographers chose the G10 images because with its wider depth of field it created an overall impression of greater sharpness.
Needless to say there was much shaking of heads and muttering. Could this be? Could a $500 digicam equal a $40,000 medium format digital system in image quality, at least in prints up to 13X19″ (Super A3)? ”
So when the Leica S2 becomes available, that might be an interesting test to see if experienced photogs, art directors and photo editors will be able to reliably tell the difference between 13X19″ prints shot with the $20,000 to $30,000 Leica S2 , and those shot with the Sony A900 costing less than $3,000 or the newer FF Sony A850 (which might be even lower in cost and might be available when the S2 arrives). You might even do comparison shots and prints between the S2 and the Canon G10. Remember “In every case no one could reliably tell the difference between 13X19″ prints shot with the $40,000 Hasselblad and Phase One 39 Megapixel back, and the new $500 Canon G10″.
It will also probably be easier to get your wife or bank manager to OK the funds to buy a G10 or A900. BTW, bring a P&S camera to catch your wife’s facial expression (or your Bank Manager’s) when you tell either of them that you would like the funds to buy an S2 Camera Body which has an “ordinary” price of more than $20,000, but less than $30,000. Don’t forget to mention that you will “need to buy two” S2 bodies as you will need one for a backup, in case of camera failure. Don’t forget the additional cost of lenses and backup lenses and of course extra battery chargers, batteries and insurance coverage.
LOL. S2 is probably a status symbol, a bit like 24-70mm f/2.8L is to me. These chaps with Porches and Ferraris could afford a couple. When I need high MP I’d just use 5DII / A900.
Found on DPreview site:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=32564722
Three days ago (and yet, no one noticed) Jenoptik announced that they are exiting the medium format market, and spinning off Sinar as an independent entity.
I can see this having several implications for Leica.
1.
Leica tried to buy Sinar last year or the year before. Now Sinar is for sale, if Leica wants them. Sinar has a really nice precision medium format view camera that might look real attractive to product shooters with an S2 attached. (although the 54mm diagonal “tweener” is a bit small for a view camera…
2.
Jenoptik says “The topic of digital image processing is and will remain one of Jenoptik’s core compentencies for the areas of medical technology, life sciences and traffic safety technology through to military reconnaissance.” So they’re staying in medical, industrial, and military, but are they staying in the 35mm game? They do make the M8 electronics.
3.
Even if Jenoptik does continue to manufacture M8 guts, what’s the implication for M9? The M uses a lot of citcuitry and software lifted from the MF back. Now, there’s nothing footing the bill for further development but Leica.
4.
Jenoptik sited two reasons for leaving the MF market, the loss of F&H and “the significant deterioration in the business potential for mid format cameras.” Leica is picking a great time to enter a market with “significant deterioration in the business potential”. In the first half of 2009, we lost five MF players: Mamiya’s assets were bought by P1, Leaf’s assets were also bought by P1, F&H went insolvent and closed down, Jenoptik pulled out, and Sinar is no longer a Hy6 marketer.
Interesting times. Scary times.
The folks at Leica should read the following – very clear and concise (found on Dpreview)::
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=32578832