Kodak's KAI-29050 29MP sensor
After my yesterday's post about the rumor that Leica M10 will have live view capabilities, I got some interesting comments from readers about the possibilities of adding new technologies in the next M camera. Here is John's comment:
It's quite possible that the next digital Leica M (M10?) will include "live view". IMHO, the hint can be found in the latest top of the line CCD from Kodak: the KAI-29050. This new 24x36mm 29 megapixel (!) sensor is an "interline transfer" sensor (i.e. not the traditional "full frame" technology used by Leica so far). A product summary pdf file has recently been added. See the bottom of the page: http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Image_Sensor_Solutions/Products/Interline_CCD.htm (direct link to the PDF file of the Kodak KAI-29050 sensor).
While I agree that the "video" factor might not be that appealing to most Leica M users (myself included), I believe that there is another key advantage to using this new (to Leica) interline transfer technology: by using the KAI-29050's built-in electronic shutter (which does not exist in a "full-frame" sensor), Leica would be able to carry out essential calculations to achieve vastly improved (more accurate) exposure and white balance, milliseconds before the actual exposure.
In such case, the use of the Leica S2's MAESTRO "ASIC" chip would be of considerable help to do the number crinching. There's another rumor for you: the Leica M10 will use the MAESTRO chip! ;-)
You raise a good point - how to manually focus with a rangefinder [camera] ... without a rangefinder ?
Another important advantage of using an interline transfer sensor (such as the Kodak KAI-29050) is that it would allow for both a traditional optical viewfinder/rangefinder (OVF) and an electronic viewfinder (EVF). AFAIK, the only currently available digital camera with such a "hybrid" viewfinder (i.e. both OVF and EVF) is the much talked-about Fuji FinePix X100 (http://www.finepix-x100.com).
If Leica is to include such a hybrid viewfinder (as had been strongly suggested in a luminous-landscape.com article, it will have to use an interline transfer sensor.
So then, how would you focus such an "M10" without its traditional (optical) rangefinder? By relying on the contrast-testing ability of the (KAI-29050) sensor to tell you if the picture is in focus or not (whether through the camera's EVF or on the rear screen ). And BTW, that is how AF work in all point-and-shoot digital cameras today (including the Leica X1 as mentioned above).
Look at this new way of focusing as a digital version of the (good) old Visoflex. Currently, if you want to use a 200mm or 280mm Telyt (or even bigger) on a Leica M camera, you still have to use a Visoflex. A new hybrid viewfinder (or using live view on the rear screen) would essentially do the same thing - but with autofocus confirmation on top of that!
And if Leica is really clever, they might even want to include electronic contacts on the M10's lens mount to connect to a new series of more advanced M lenses - with full AF capability! Leica's partner, Panasonic, as the maker of the G2 and G3, could turn out to be of great help to Leica in achieving these goals.
And no, all of this modern wizardry will not turn our favorite "M" into yet another "sino-japanese gadget". I would not want that, and I suspect neither would Leica's engineers and designers. A better, higher resolution OLED (or AMOLED) screen would indeed be great.
In the end, it's all about taking better pictures without the camera getting in the way ... And that's why I prefer the Leica M.
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64 Comments
Please, please DO NOT use a tilt/swivel LCD panel on the back!
and definitely NO video. video just adds more production and support costs for video, which would rather be diverted to budget towards better sensor for pictures. video is NOT free, and if at the costs of still photos, it is NOT wanted.
Leica’s gonna charge you whatever it wants to charge, regardless of what’s actually in the box.
You devotees had just better hope the M10 comes out before all this technology is available in a $1,000 Pentax.
The pentax Q system?
or you have juice information?
shut up!!!!!!!! Do use a tilt screan with live view and full hd video!!!!!!!
or a R 10 ????
I would go for the 29Mpix sensor, better screen on the back, better high ISO performance, and quicker in I/O to the SD-cards. Perhaps a VF with lines for a 18 or 24mm lens.
If I want a EVF, LiveView, movies, etc. I’ll buy a m43 camera from a Japanese company. Please don’t turn the M-line in ‘regular’ camera.
“Please don’t turn the M-line in ‘regular’ camera.”
Agree… it just might end up becoming better value for money, making it not so good a message to announce that the owner has more money than brains.
While Leica may switch to a different type of sensor, I seriously doubt they have any intention of adding an EVF or video to an M. However, I do hope their new interchangeable lens system camera that will fall between the X1 and the M will have these capabilities.
interesting how Mr. Huff had the same prediction today
he got his info from LeicaRumors obviously
prepare to pay an arm or leg leica lovers
A EVF ???? He’s got to be kidding !
Leica has a great thing : they make a real camera with no gadget ! A one that is made for photography like during the analog days ! So what should they change all that !
They can do whatever they want with the X1 or else but they should ameliorate the M serie without putting any unuseful annoying gadgets !
I made a little survey among Leica users in France, it appears that few things were needed, like a fast waking up of the camera, higher ISO, and a much better rear screen. Basically it is more some technical problem than lacking of stupid gadgets that is needed.
I use the M8 and and I use it like I use my M6 or M7. that is what I LOVE about this camera. I use it like the good old days !
I would NOT buy a M with a live view because it is not what a real camera is made for !
Maybe Leica has decided to become more “mainstream” in order to capture new customers? Just speculating.
I think Leica’s mandate should be simple: Only add new technology that aids in making better STILL images…and forget any other electronic felgercarb. I would say the focus should be:
1) Improved response/write times
2) Significantly improved image quality (MAESTRO processor sounds promising)
3) Much better low light capability
4) Electronic focus ASSIST and aperture and shutter speeds in the viewfinder – but no more than that.
I couldn’t agree more. My dream Leica M would even come without the rear LCD. I don’t need any of the menus. Digital has transformed photography into a geek show and Leica among a few others has managed to remain the a company that is mainly about the art.
Agreed 100% Robert.
It would seem that contrast detection could be used to provide focus confirmation within the rangefinder area and that would be very useful. However, I think it would require one to first focus slightly beyond the focus point in order for the camera to detect peak contrast value, which is what I believe happens automatically in autofocus systems. Still worth it if it works – especially if it works in the low light, low contrast conditions where rangefinder focus is typically most difficult.
More than mainstream people, video is the zeitgest of photoreporter. They’re is more and more mix of still and video pictures in serious photojournalism. Even Magnum does some (and they have a deal with Leica ! )
yes, adding video to the M9 will probably bring new customers to Leica
Going mainstream would require them to lower their prices.
Suddenly a digital sensor in place of a film gate is “no gadget?”
Leica will have to evolve (slowly, of course) to survive. At some point, you guys will get tired of having a thousand dollar Sony outperform your $9,000 piece of jewelry.
Were you not aware Leica spelled backward is Greek for “delusional?”
That made my day! Thank you!
I agree, I think Leica should improve the software/firmware, ISO performance, and the rear screen before they should consider adding other features such as HD video recording. But HD video is a desirable feature.
But a tilting rear screen would be a good addition for me. I was shooting with my M9 on Sunday and I wished my M9 had a tilting-OLED screen on numerous occasions. My companion with an OLED-equipped Samsung NX had no trouble looking at subjects or playing frames in strong sunlight or under the shade and at funny angles. There are times when I want to shoot high or low with the M9 but it’s just too difficult because I have to look thru the viewfinder.
Anything that can support some weak parts of M9 and SUPLEMENT rangefinder mechanism, not replace AND without sacrificing rangefinder soul
- WELCOME !!!
Exactly!
Please god please a better screen, i’m begging you Leica, its the only thing on that list I care about.
Or no screen at all! That would make digital photography feel like photography again.
Put some duct tape over it or if that’s not to your taste, some poor animal’s hide over it
That thing will cost 29 MegaDollars!!!
Hey guys, forget about that… I’d rather go throught http://www.640×480.net/
For Leica lovers: I know that is a wonderful toy/object/tool to work, but remember flat monitors have at max 2000 x 1600 px, and with 6MB you can print a beautiful image at least 80 x 60 cm without problem. So…Uhmm would put that money to travel more.
Patricio
Hybrid viewfinder? Copying the Fuji x100 now??
God…contrast focus, AF lens mount…just have leica cut a deal with pana: put a red dot on the G2, charge $2500 for the privilege, and be done with it.
I’ll stick to my x100, thanks.
and if Leica does everything you just mentioned, it would be great because finally they would be able to sell us a $10000 Panasonic GF with a red dot. PLEASEEEE!!!! if leica does everything you just said im selling all my gear and getting just another great camera. i don’t think neither leica nor it’s users (the more serious ones) would want all of those features just yet. i think that transitions like those should be done very slowly. the mechanical feel to the M line cannot be thrown away just like that. if not like i said it would just be a $10000 GF.
A $9,000 Leica GF with:
1) Body made from magnesium and casing continued to be milled from a solid block of steel.
2) New Kick-Ass Sensor and Maestro Chip
3) Faster read-write and reliable SD firmware
4) Usable ISO of up to 4,600
5) 6 frames per second burst
6) Tilting OLED display
7) Maybe HD video – if Leica can incorporate it without sacrificing other aspects
The credit card up and ready to go.
hopefully it wouldn’t be a modern M5 sort of situation. not that the M5 is a bad camera whatsoever, but didn’t it totally piss off their customer base when they abandoned the traditional aesthetics/ergonomics of the M system? i think M shooters like things the way they are, with upgrades that don’t affect the usability of the camera.
Thankyou for the common sense.
Leica won’t change from the Rangefinder M – as you have said, they caught a HUGE amount of complaints from what I call the cry-baby traditionalists with the release of the M5. Which was a very nice camera, with a meter displayed viewfinder that higly useable – but the camera was bigger. Leica will not radically change the M – they’ll keep it very close to what it is.
Big techno updates/concepts will more than likely show up on a new body alongside the existing M body. Be smart, keep everyone happy.
no leica does NOT need to keep everybody happy, just importantly the loyalists and collectors. anyone who switches over for video or cheap gimmicks is not going to spend on a collection of expensive leica lenses. they cry now, but wait until they find out the lenses are $4000 avg. each. by purposely keeping down their user base, the collectibility skyrockets and they can make it from titanium and sell it 10x as much.
In other words, just buy a x100.
I’ve thought up some ideas of modernizing the rangefinder (not the Leica M) in my spare time:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charge5/6044042295/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charge5/5261695873/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charge5/5371701572/in/photostream/
If I were Leica, I’d put a 29MP sensor in there and make the accessible image resolutions lower, like 19MP. That way users won’t see the microlens artifact crap on 100% crops you see on the M9, the number 19MP looks like progress over the 18MP of the M9, and more importantly, people will know that the slight increase in MPs instead of a massive increase (e.g. to 29MP) means Leica actually worked on improving the quality and not just the number of pixels.
Also, Leica’s not going to ditch the traditional OVF in the M10… wonder whether they ever will (ever as in within 20 years times).
As for live view, the new sensor will most probably be capable of it but not sure if Leica will enable it.
GTW
The latest LFI has an article about the “microlens crap”. Artifacts are actually caused by lens which are sharper than the sensor and obviously the lack of the antialias filter. A solution would be to take the sensor resolution higher.
Actually you can post-process the artifacts by slightly blurring color channels but not the luminance channel. Works in some cases and does not loose detail.
If that’s then:
1. The artifacts won’t be radial and worsen towards the corners where the sharpness is less. But the artifacts are worst in the corners.
2. There are different kinds of artifacts. The lack of AA filter leads to a “jaggies” look, which is also there in the M9 images as well as on my AA filter removed 15MP APS-C camera. The radial blooming issue is most definitely caused by off-set microlenses.
Post processing is lying to oneself. You can’t get back detail that were never captured.
You suggest that Leica adds the option to save the 29 MP images as 19 MP images just to save people from the temptation to look at 100% crops of the 29 MP image?
Doubt the 29MP images will be usable. So why give the opportunity for people to complain about the noise and artifacts of an unusable version of the image that’s only good for taking up space on the card/harddisk?
Leica already does forced noise reduction in the raw files of the M9 that smears details (see dxomark ‘insights’ article). At least down-ressing a 29MP to 19MP (without performing NR) will give you a lot more detail over the M9′s 18MP images anyway.
Simply put, a lot of people will throw money at cameras which are deemed photographic tools of excellence, unfortunately I did that with the M9. Now, don’t get me wrong it is a fantastic tool, I just expected more for the money hoping I would get something in perfection. It’s not even close for me, it might be for others. It was too slow, and somewhat clumpsy to use. I love the focusing and the manual lenses, I just hated the whole interface and handling combined. I love what the 18MP gave me in return compared to my 5D2 and D700.
Today I am seriously thinking about MF digital backs and even the S2, however, I know throwing money that end will not meet my expectations of returns, for others I’m sure it will. Oh and the Fuji x100 I sold within a week!
Handling and software are just as important as high quality lens selection and camera features. I thought the M9 was good, the X100 was average at best (Loved a lot of it and especially the hybrid evf but hugely only really let down by it’s AF, since MF was non-existant), and the 5d2 and D700 are both excellent to me. I hope the M10 can largely improve upon the m9 for sure. Eradicate any focusing issues. I also love how Leica is trying it’s best to meet consumers with updated lenses. I had purchased new the 35lux, and 50cron. Didn’t like the 35lux but loved the 50cron and felt it didn’t even need an update.
So Leica, there’s a lot you can offer us, but don’t bring to market just an idea, make it really good!
What about thinking differently about the whole auto-focus issue. What if Leica built an autofocus where the mechanicals weren’t in the lens, but the sensor itself moved to bring the image into final focus?
Rangefinder users just don’t _want_ autofocus.
+1
A Leica camera without rangefinder ain’t a M- camera. Full stop.
The Kodak sensor can’t shoot video, it maxes out at 4fps. So you’re not going to get live view either. Forget it.
All I really want out of the M10 is electronic focus confirmation because even at 18Mpx the rangefinder just isn’t reliable enough with fast glass. With a 29mpx sensor electronic focus really can’t be done perfectly anywhere else but on the sensor itself. The Kodak sensor’s interline readout would allow this to happen quickly and effectively.
So, if “all” the M10 offers is 29Mpx, electronic focus confirmation, and a decent LCD screen for reviewing images quickly, that’ll be absolutely perfect and I’ll be in line for one.
… and please SILVER please… not metallic grey…
How many people really believe Leica will come out with a new M RF in 2012?
That would be a HUGE change for Leica and it’s ‘pro’ product cycle time-line. The M8 wasn’t FF so there was a need and reason to bring the M9. Anything is possible, but Leica is not a hurry-up company. Perhaps an exception would be a big step forward, and even though there things I would like to see – at least 5 fps – a better finder, easier to use controls – which would start to constitute a major change for them and away from the traditional.
solution: buy a NEX7 or a NEX5N with the leica lenses adapter. That way you can invest all your money into leica lenses, while waiting for the m10 to come around.
Just hurry up already so I can get a cheaper M9.
Kodak positions this CCD mostly for three verticals: (see page 5 of specifications)
APPLICATIONS
Industrial Imaging and Inspection
Medical Imaging
Security
I wonder how suitable it is to Leica requirements…
I Leica will maintain this line as is now. I think, the very aged M (manual) line will not make any sense if it has autofocus, or hasn’t got rangefinder.
speculation: why leica’s doesn’t perform good on high iso? Because they have faster lens to sell?
my guess for leica M10
-1/10000 shutter
-a killer sensor with high iso and low noise
-a better display , maybe touch
-gps capabilities and wifi disk
-better frame lines
-1:1 viewfinder
-better grip leather
…and $13000 price tag.
this are very nice specs very exiting…
Leica did some great cameras long time ago with M3, MP and now they need to compete in the numerical world. That means they need a jointventure with Kodak to keep this high quality. There s no surprise ; more pixels, more electronics, more gadgets are the only way for Leica to bring this new M10. But for me, Leica need to hire some NVH engineers to fix this noise issue for the M10 !!! Street photographers need to be discrete
Nag,
Leicina reborn. At last.
and the price is around $8000?? body only at least
Never seen all these features in single machine before this. Great tool, covers your every need.
The 10th Leica M better be something amazing =)
all this tech from a company which can’t even make a camera that writes reliably to SD cards?
only panasonic will be able to pull this off for them
i shudder at the thought…wake up people