In an interview with BJP and AP, Leica's chairman Dr. Andreas Kaufmann and CEO Alfred Schopf confirmed that they will be announcing a new compact mirrorless system camera (EVIL) at Photokina 2012, something I have been reporting here on LeicaRumors for a while. Some quotes:
"It's more than an idea, you will see something at the next Photokina. The new system will use an "APS-C sized sensor at least" [Alfred Schopf]
"We will always do things differently and we always take our time." [Andreas Kaufmann]
The new camera system is expected to be different from the current offerings from other manufacturers. It seems that Leica has decided on an EVF, but this will depend on the type of sensor they will choose. Expect the new camera to be compatible with Leica R lenses.
Here is a description of the new Leica EVIL camera I got back in May of 2010 - many things have probably changed since:
“We will see a full frame Leica EVIL on Photokina 2010. It will look like the Leicaflex 18X24 prototype. Of course without mirror or the film lever and so on. It will be a VERY small system camera, but there will be a big battery grip you can use, if you want. The AF is very special, moving chip, the phase AF is ON the main sensor. Only in black, 21 mp, 2fps, native ISO from 50 to 6400. Full magnesium. Price: body only 3200 EUR. Will start with 3(!) pancakes, 2 primes, 2 zooms.”
Few other interesting facts from the interview:
- Leica still has backlog (obviously).
- Leica declined several requests from companies to outsource its production to Asia (China).
- Andreas Kaufmann plans to launch a new company for publication of photobooks later this year, first book may be featuring Seal's photography.
- Update: Leica already sold 1500 copies of the new M9-P camera.
Related posts:
- Leica’s new compact mirrorless system camera: priced between the X1 and M9, compatible with M-mount lenses
- Leica acknowledges development of new system camera (R-solution)
- In addition to D-Lux 5, Leica will release another Panasonic based compact camera at Photokina
- Leica UK denies rumors of a new mirrorless system
- For Photokina: Leica D-Lux 5, V-Lux 2 and a Titanium M9 kit
28 Comments
What do we need a new system ??????????????
APS-C in the form factor of the Leicaflex 18×24. So it’s a fat X1 with interchangeable lenses. Another way of looking at it would be an M8.2 with the good bits (rangefinder and M-mount) taken off and replaced with autofocus instead?
I still hope it will be FF. Otherwise, at that time we will have plenty of APS-C ones from Sony, Samsung, Ricoh, maybe others…
At least two of them accepting easily M lenses.
Focusing manual M lenses on NEX became real fun since they added color peaking with recent firmware!
Sometimes, especially when you want to focus not in center of the frame – it may be better than rangefinder mechanism. Focusing became much more quicker.
Plus EVF – better, with more resolution, than one in GH2 – expected in NEX-7 – what can Leica make better in APS-C world?
The only thing that comes to my mind are microlenses. But what is benefit of them on APS-C if wide angle won’t be wide anyway, especially fast…
If a person needs fast 35mm – should he\she buy big, heavy fast 24mm?
For me – mirrorless EVF makes A LOT of sense, but only in FF world.
+1
FF is what Leica R and M lenses have been designed for, and Leica R lens owners are still waiting for a camera that takes their legacy glass without a crop factor.
An APS-C mirrorless camera wouldn’t be special at all, a FF evil would be unique, without competition.
And with typical Leica prices, 1000 Euros or Dollars more for a FF sensor wouldn’t be that important.
If the lens and mount are designed specifically for the smaller sensor, then the 24mm APS-C lens would be smaller than the 35mm FF lens.
Why make it Leica R compatible? Doesn’t the “R” slr camera require a longer-rear-flange-whatever-thingee?
I think (I hope) that means with an adapter. Sadly, R lenses are no longer cheap.
called it.
R lens compatible, what an interesting idea……
As much as I want (or wanted) Leica to bring out a beast that they promised 3 years ago to use R glass, honestly, why and how should we believe them this time? Kaufmann’s comment, “we will always do things differently, and we always take our time.” Really? I hadn’t noticed. It could also read, ‘we developed an uber S camera and decided to leave the R user’s without what we had repeatedly promised, and we always take our loyal base for granted.’
Here’s an idea, make it useable, at least as useable as the R was (is with film) and don’t bother with R lens compatibility unless it’s going to be full-frame. I’m curious to see what they do, but I’m not waiting with baited breath to buy it.
What’s the old saying? ‘Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.’
My two years old Panasonic G1 is “R lens compatible” with the appropiate adapter.
Where’s the problem in making a full frame EVIL that can adapt virtually any 35mm lens ever made with a matching adapter?
“Where’s the problem in making a full frame EVIL that can adapt virtually any 35mm lens ever made with a matching adapter?”
The problem is cost vs. demand. Leica sells one (with a not-quite-up-to-date sensor) for $6000 at around 10000 units per year (or so I am told).
Canon and Nikon sell probably about like 100000 units a year for $2500 to $3000. They could sell a FF EVIL at a similar price, but others might not be able to get enough volume to sell at that price.
Electronic products are cheaper to produce than mechanical products. A FF Evil could be cheaper than an M9.
But demand is higher already for the €/$ 6000 M9 than Leica is able to deliver.
So, again, “Where’s the problem in making a full frame EVIL that can adapt virtually any 35mm lens ever made with a matching adapter?”
I think the EVIL market is still being tested… the manufacturers are not convinced yet that pros or serious amateurs are willing to drop serious money for a FF EVIL. I think X1 and X100 were a way to test this, and given the excitement they generated, I think there is less problem now. Same with the 1.4/25 Leica-Panasonic lens. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy that there is not enough pro interest for EVIL; the lens line up is still mostly geared toward snapshooters. Hence my belief that FF is included as a possibility in the phrase “APS… at least”.
I didn’t think NEX-7 was going to be full frame? I wasn’t sure if the lens mount would allow it. If it is, that could be a killer, but Sony would have to give in and put a hot shoe or PC socket on it for it to be a pro camera. I also can’t imagine the NEX-C3 is sturdy enough to be mounted on an Apo-Telyt-R.
I think Leica can very well put together an APS EVIL with interchangeable mount and EVF for US$2-3,000, and maybe FF for about another US$1,000. That’s much cheaper than the R10 would have been, and much, much cheaper than the S2 or the SD-1. The sensor used in the S2, I believe, retails for about US$1,500.
The sensor is more than 50% of the production cost of a M9, FF sensors are bloody expensive.
Look, the D700 was about $1500 more expensive than the D300 and the main difference in cost was the sensor. And that was for a camera selling hugely. Take your favourite APS-C (high-end) mirrorless camera and add $1500.
Why would a FF EVIL from Leica be $2000-3000 cheaper than a M9? Sorry, the RF viewfinder does not cost $3000.
Would a lens-less EVIL cost more than the X1 + EVF? It being Leica, it will, but not by more than $1,000; the Elmarit is surely more valuable than an EVF. So my guess for the APS EVIL remains at $2,000 – 3,000.
I think you might be right that the FF premium is more like $1,500. Sony Alpha 820, which is full frame, when it was still being sold, cost $2000, vs 580, which is the top-line APS, costs $900 now, so that’s $1,100. (Of course, Alpha 900, also full frame, costs $2600 now, so that’s $1,700.) Now, Canon 5D is $2,500, and 7D is $1,700, so that’s only $800. The 1D is more, but it’s got other additives. So call it $1000, with $500 Leica/small-qty premium.
Then again, the MP is $5,000 now, and the M9 is $7,000. Leica’s cost of adding full frame to a film camera, then, is $2,000. Adding it to an APS body should be lower, hence $1,500. If Leica is really paying $3,500 for the M9 sensor, they are being fleeced, even accounting for volume.
Apparently Leica does think the rangefinder is worth $3,000. The M family has always been a lot more expensive than engineering costs would suggest. The MP and the R9 were about the same price (a bit less than $3,000?) when they were first released in 2002/3. I would expect a 60-year-old rangefinder design to be cheaper than the 6-year-old SLR mechanism, since there is little engineering and tooling cost left to recoup. I figure, Rangefinder = M9 – FF – X1 = $7,000 – $1,500 – $2,000 = $3,500!!! Or, Rangefinder = M8 – X1 = $4,500 – $2,000 = $2,500. Not what it costs to make, but what Leica thinks they can charge.
So my revised estimate, is $2,000 X1 – $0 lens + $1,000 EVF + $1,500 FF = $4,500 for the full frame maximum; likely a lot less, since I am underestimating lens removal and overestimating EVF.
I would think the first model would be an APS model, basically X1 with interchangeable lenses, with upgrade later to a full frame. X1 body is basically the same size as the M9, without the rangefinder, so there should not be a real problem; maybe the same shape as M9, but replace the rangefinder bit with an EVF? “R compatible” might mean that the adapter can read and translate the ROM contacts, maybe even the cams. If it can read 1- or 2-cam lenses, it would be fantastic for so many people who have been resisting digital. It would be hell for those of us who rely on the used lens market, tho’.
I would buy it… although I’d probably have to wait for the used market.
I wouldn’t waste my R lenses on an APS-C sensor.
I would rather put my R lenses on an APS-C sensor than any other lens.
Corollary:
Why put R lenses on an APS-C sensor with an EVF if the EVF doesn’t have a quantam leap in resolution?
The EVF is the limiting factor in EVIL.
Why could Leica not work with someone like SONY, take a FF NEX7, modify the mount to also accept R lenses along with a new line of AF IS lenses (via adapter), and so make a handsome profit as well as making it relatively affordable.
I don’t get the R lens compatible. That is a DSLR, not a smaller camera. Maybe it will be a mirrorless DSLR?
With some companies, (Fuji, Panasonic, and Oly (except one model)) and others already gone from this market, I find it hard to imagine there enough demand for another APS sensor DSLR. With the amount of time that has gone by since the last R camera release, I would think most photographers have moved to other brands already and wouldn’t want to make yet another major investment.
Could this EVIL Leica between twinned with the upcoming Panasonic G that is designed for and targeted at the Prosumer market? Leica got a lot of assistance from panasonic with the design and production of the X1 and it can only be good for Leica.
I can’t see how Leica can afford to go alone in such a new camera. The investment is too great. Leica must be co-operating with Panasonic on a lot of the componentry, if not more.
Here’s the excerpt from the recent article.
“In an interview with Photoradar, Panasonic’s Director of DSC Business unit Ichiro Kitao confirmed their plans to split the Lumix GF line into consumer and professional cameras. Lately Panasonic was criticized that their new models had less functionality/controls than their predecessors. In the case of the GF3, a new GF model aimed at experienced photographers will be released in the future (no exact date was given).
Kitao also confirmed that Panasonic will concentrate next on bringing out a successor to the GH2 and their main challenge is improving the EVF.
Read more on PhotoRumors.com: http://photorumors.com/2011/06/13/professional-panasonic-lumix-gf-camera-in-the-works/#ixzz1Q3pYRQQN“
I hope it is at least a 1.33x crop, with some optimization for use with manual focus lenses (M/R/blah).
It seems to me that APS sensors are drastically overlooked by film and “full size” digital sensor users. The cropping of our beloved lenses is, yes, disappointing, and perhaps even a bit disorienting at first. But I believe we must consider this. When Oscar Barnack was brave enough to attempt a SMALL FORMAT camera, he did just that. His main competition that his camera would need to sell against? 60mm x 90mm, which was a common print size of the day. Yep, zero enlargement factor. And what was one of the main benefits of the SMALL FORMAT? Extended depth of field, on lenses with SIMILAR fields of few! Which really led to the possibility of Cartier-Bresson’s photographic style, which the Leica is so well known for now.
Imagine this, being out street shooting, and instead of needing to be at f/5.6, 8 or even 11 or 16 to accurately and quickly focus, compose and shoot your subject, having the same depth available at f/3.5, 2.8, or 2(!) depending on the respective lenses of course. This advantage seems quite tempting, and though I sound like an APS fanatic friends, I still shoot Leica film bodies, and am not lucky enough to have one of the half-frame M’s, which Leica did make! No digital camera can shoot Tri-X, and until then, I remain a film shooter.
“Imagine this, being out street shooting, and instead of needing to be at f/5.6, 8 or even 11 or 16 to accurately and quickly focus, compose and shoot your subject, having the same depth available at f/3.5, 2.8, or 2(!) depending on the respective lenses of course. This advantage”
Where is the ADVANTAGE?
For example:
On FF you set f/8 on 50mm lens.
You will get similar picture on APS-C with 35mm at f/5.6.
You will get similar picture on u43 with 25mm at f/4.
If shutter speed is an issue – you can use higher ISO on larger sensor.
End result will be again similar, as smaller sensors show more noise, even at lowest ISO.
You:
1) won’t open aperture eg. to f/0.7 on smaller sensor lenses (to get what you have on FF)
2) you won’t find reasonably small fast wide angle lenses, that would still give wide angle on crop sensors.
I use Canon body with my R lenses now days. There are adapters for Nikon bodies too. Just check out Leitax.com.
I would not mind having better focusing system – now I rely on Live View for complete accuracy, and it would be nice for a camera to stop down the aperture for me when I take a shot, but that’s nothing I haven’t learned to live with. If next Canon pro model goes EVIL, that might solve 50% of my frustrations for focusing. Just imagine – push the button to 10X magnify the image, adjust focus, then shoot. EVF gain will solve another 25% of problems by enabling to keep the lens stopped down.
I am not a bit intrigued with “APS” Leica effort. After waiting for R10 I felt burned, but now there are plenty of working ways to exploit R glass with digital bodies.
I think Leica could do themselves a favor and consolidate M & R lines into a single body. With EVF there is no reason that could not be done. Or that could be done by Fuji with the next version of X camera for them. They have the technology.
There is an interesting article from Sephan Daniel concerning the Leica strategy and plans regarding the EVIL camera.
To resume:
-The 9M-P is more an esthetic change so that Leica can concentrate himself in the study of a new camera (M10..)
-There is still a need between the M9 and the X1 who can be taken by something..(EVIL??)
-Leica is open to the autofocus on this new product.
-Leica is conscient that a company like Fuji can produce tomorrow a X100(M) with the leica mount as the patent has expired in 1974.
-The Evil or what it is is still a concept (so no technical decision at the moment)
-Certainly it will be an APS-C (FF reserved for the top like M9, M10?)
-M9 will still a bit more than 3 years on the market (2013?, M8 to M9 was 3 years).
-Solms factory wills extend the production capacity by doubling the work force capacity (day and night shift) in order to add the new camera on production.