More rumors for the new Leica M camera, limited edition Noctilux also a possibility

Leica-M-Type-801-concept-prototype-camera
I received another set of rumored specifications for the new Leica M camera:

With the 50th anniversary of the Noctilux lens, Leica is also rumored to announce a new limited edition of the Noctilux lens (last year Leica already had a ‘0.95’ limited edition Noctilux).

Picture: Leica M concept camera

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  • Bob2o2

    Off topic: Will you please sod off with your stupid tins.

    • No worries, I am almost sold out.

    • ZMWT

      Please keep the tins. Love them!

    • Laud Farter

      I got one last week–looks great–my wife thought I’d bought yet another M…..

      • They actually look like a real camera, I am glad you like it.

    • Bo Dez

      Bit harsh dude. And what is wrong with the tins?

      • Bob2o2

        They are vastly overpriced you can find them in souvenir shops for around 10 bucks. Also this is a rumors site he shouldn’t be selling them here he gets enough money from ads

      • Bob2o2

        They are vastly overpriced you can find them in souvenir shops for around 10 bucks.

        • I am selling those after I paid shipping to the US, import duties and I offer free shipping to the US and discounted international shipping. Just because your local souvenir shop has them cheaper doesn’t mean everybody can get them for that price. Oh, and I will continue to advertise them once I get the new shipment.

      • ok, this was just another troll, I deleted his comments

        • Zoomwow

          Why is it a troll saying you can pick these tins up at souvenir shops for around 10 bucks? Also calling you out on selling stuff on a rumor website, it is full of ads anyway, so not like you aren’t making a buck.

  • Bo Dez

    If it’s still stuck on 24MP this will be very bad in my opinion.

    • FountainHead

      24 MP more than enough for MP count IMO.
      The key will be the quality.

      I’d rather a top-quality 16-24 MP sensor than a pretty good 36MP…

      • Teemu Kustila

        I guarantee you that the 36 MP will look better than the
        24 MP if you down sample them to equal resolutions at all times. Regardless of ISO number. Technology moves forward. Can you give me an example of a “pretty good” 36 MP? I only know great ones. So I agree with Bo Dez. It’s time to go up. I am hoping for 30-36 MP.

      • Bo Dez

        Well we all have our different uses but for what I need 24MP is nothing close to “more than enough”. More than enough is more like 70MP. 36-40mp would be ideal for me. Why do people think that just because there would be more megapixels, the quality would have to go down by default?

        • Teemu Kustila

          Agreed. This is one of the biggest photography related myths out there. If your photo is blurry at 24MP it’s blurry at 36MP. I don’t know exactly where this myth came from. Imo, There is no such thing as megapixel sweet spot. Yet so many people believe in it.

          • Gavin Pitts

            Yes, exactly right!

            Just to clarify – let’s assume that two photos are being taken of the exact same scene with the exact same camera and technique, from the exact same distance, with the exact same lens and the exact same sensor size, at exactly the same time using the exact same settings. One sensor is 24mp and the other is 40mp, that’s the only difference. Looking at both photos at 1:1 equivalent of the 24mp image, you wouldn’t see any additional motion blur in the 40mp shot, just because it has 40mp and both were hand held shots.

            Assuming that there was motion blur in the image, the more you enlarged that image, the more apparent the motion blur would become. It’s not that the 40mp image has more blur than the 24mp image, it’s just that you are looking at it on a more magnified level, due to the additional pixels. The 24mp image would look worse at that equivalent size regardless, because it doesn’t have the resolution and is being enlarged/stretched at that point.

            The only thing you are giving up by hand holding an image with a less than ideal shutter speed, is the advantage the extra pixels give you in the first place. That’s why people talk about being careful with camera shake the higher you go in MP’s, simply so you can make sure you get the full benefit out of having a much bigger file size in the first place.

            Having said all of that, for me, I personally think 24mp is enough in the M, if it allows Leica to improve the image quality at 3200 and 6400 ISO then I’m all for that. I think more people would see a benefit from a cleaner file and perhaps a faster top shutter speed of 1/8000 sec. Having a lower number of pixels on the sensor, does allow them to gather more light, all else being equal.

            Also, I have a large print (over 1 metre) on my wall, made from an M9 18mp file. From the correct viewing distance to take the whole picture in, it looks stunning. The lens being used, the correct focus point, exposure settings and technique far outweigh the megapixels in my personal opinion. If you don’t get these right, then no amount of pixels is going to make a difference. I too used to work with a 12mp camera for years and made some incredible large prints. Granted, technique was more important though, with less room for error. 24mp really is enough for anything sensible, if you are able to consistently nail everything else.

    • Laud Farter

      24mp is plenty for my needs–even the M8’s 10MP, which I still use along with my M240, is good enough, especially for street/documentary/daily stuff. I don’t recall wanting more resolution from my M240s. How many pimples and pores do you really want to see?

      If I were a landscape shooter I might need more resolution and would go for one of the medium format solutions. Still, I’ve printed D700 12MP photos on 17″ wide that resolved what looked like dust spots but turned out to be birds in the sky when zoomed in. That’s plenty of detail for my needs. YMMV of course.

      • Bo Dez

        Everyone has their different uses. I have medium format but the Leica M is a big part of my work too and I need it to be 36-40MP.

        • Les

          Thing is, the 36+ mp range is where you start to need a tripod in order to get the best results. That’s not the M’s strong suit, compared to other types of cameras.
          24 MP will get you a good A2 (24″ wide) print, and a decent A1 (33″ wide), depending on your subject. That’ to me. is more than enough for a camera that is meant to be used hand-held.

          • Bo Dez

            This is not true. I shoot 100MP without a tripod, with a much bigger heavier camera and it’s fine.

          • Les

            Do you shoot your PhaseOne like a Leica? I’m sure you can get good results from 100mp in full daylight, working carefully, but what about the situations where the Leica is at its strongest?

          • Bo Dez

            Well I use them for different things but in essence, yes, I shoot them the same. I mean handheld in low light.

          • Teemu Kustila

            Just curious what makes you think 36 mp will needs a tripod and while 24 mp does not? Because of the infamous Sony A7r shutter shake? Because of DSLR mirror slap? Neither issues should be problem for Leica. A7r II is 44 mp and it does not need tripod any more than M-P. Just saying…

          • Les

            What makes me think? Experience.
            The main reason to have so many pixels is to print bigger and to get more detail. Bigger prints have a higher expectation of sharpness.

            An 8×10 doesn’t need to be critically sharp, but anything in the meter+ (40″+) range either has to either be very soft, or very sharp. “Almost sharp” doesn’t make it.

            The way to get critical sharpness is with careful focusing and a tripod. You can do that with an M, but why?

          • Bo Dez

            A tripod for critical sharpness is a myth. It is, at least, to me. I don’t like them and don’t use them in all but the rarest of situations when I need to lock off the camera position for some reason.

          • I tried a Leica SL with 4K video, and my video came out so shaky it was unusable … very disappointing! Same thing happened on my Nikon D5. 1080P looks great on my Leica Q.

            So it looks to me like high resolution comes with big challenges and probably requires a totally new camera holding setup …

        • Brennan McKissick

          36-40mp is too much for most people, which is who they are designing this camera for. (Most people as in relative to people buying a new M camera.) They have good reasons not to go that high aside from the fact that the files are massive. They don’t want to step on the toes of their other “professional” systems. What are they going to do when the M has more MP and a better sensor than the SL which they advertise as their “pro” system? Or what happens when the M passes up the S in terms of MP? I know MP aren’t everything but a lot of people will overlook the S and the SL on this alone.

          • Bo Dez

            I hear this a lot, and while I really do respect your opinion I don’t agree with it at all. Having used high megapixel cameras for many years they really aren’t that vastly different in use. I handhold them both. It’s the ‘nothing to fear but fear itself’ thing.

            The M is a professional system, and to me, Leica is the M. It seems you may be surprised at how many are using it in this context.

            The M is a completely different paradigm to the S. It does not compete with it. I use my M for specific things, I use medium format for other things. I can’t do without either, but I really need as much resolution as possible. The S will not stay 37MP any longer, if they do it will die a death.

            MP increase is inevitable. 10 years ago I was shooting a 22MP leaf back and it was an unheard of amount of resolution, everyone was crying how we didn’t need that much and how much harder it was to shoot with and yet 24Mp is sort of base level for a professional camera now.

            Bring on the Megapixels.

          • CHD

            Step on the toes of other systems?? Come on man…if Leica puts out an $8k new M at 24MP they won’t be stepping on anyone’s toes, they will lose the enthusiast market to the new medium formats from Fuji and Hassy.
            There is no reason why they can’t come out with a 36mp sensor with improved DR and that would make many people (especially myself) happy.

          • TwoStrayCats

            The SL will go 36+ and the S will suddenly be a type 008 with 50+.

        • kahudson

          The problem with greater resolution (36MP+) on a rangefinder camera is that it will make focusing errors, especially at wide apertures, more apparent. This assumes one is focusing solely with the rangefinder and not with EVF aids.

      • TwoStrayCats

        All of them. Then I can remove them post-process with Portrait Pro.

      • Bo Dez

        pores is exactly one of the things I want to see.

    • Yes, conflicting info on the sensor MP – I am not sure what is going to be.

    • Ric Ricard

      I don’t believe the ancient rangefinder is precise enough to focus at 36mp. Also, what do you shoot, Bo, that requires you to “need” 36mp? Is Bo Dez your real name? Although my name shows up here as Ric Ricard, my name is John Ricard. It never seems right to me for someone to make equipment judgements online unless they back up those statements by using their real name and showing samples of why they “need” certain types of improvements from camera makers. Not saying you are doing this since Bo Dez may indeed be your real name. Just want to make it clear why I am asking.

      • Bo Dez

        Hi John. I think the rangefinder will be fine, personally. The idea is ancient but the current version in the M is not. Its tolerances are tighter and it will continue to get better over time and with the EVF/Liveview I see no issues at all. I shoot Medium format digital mostly manual focus and I don’t really have issues focussing 100mp, even with the 120mm and handheld and that is with an SLR which I actually find more tricky that a Rangefinder. Bo Dez is not my name and my equipment judgments have no bearing on my name. Sorry but I don’t share your view there.

        • Ric Ricard

          The real name thing is very important. Often in photography, the conversation about the gear we “need” isn’t being driven by working photographers. It’s being driven by fans and enthusiasts. And that’s fine when the conversation is about what we “want”. But when you have a chorus of voices telling us that say, 24mp is no longer enough, it is important to understand who is making that statement. Let’s say Peter Hurley, a well known NYC based working photographer were making the statement that in 2016, his clients are asking for more than 24mp. Or let’s say he’s saying that his clients are beginning to ask for RAW rather than JPEG files. That information should carry a lot of weight since its a reflection of the “real” world. But if, on the other hand, you have shooters who are sponsored by Sony telling us that we all need to be mirrorless, or if you have random anonymous guys on the internet with no actual clients telling us that they “need” 36mp, a photographer could just ignore all of that talk because it isn’t a reflection of something need.

          I would also add, in the case of you, Bo Dez, when I look at your Disqus profile, I see quite a few rude comments that you are making to people -including a “stfu” at one point. I think it is much easier to make statements like that when you know no one reading it has the ability to track you down and ask you to make the same statement face to face.

          • Bo Dez

            Important for you perhaps. iMO, Take it or leave it. Make your own judgements. I’m a working photographer I’m not sponsored by anyone, nor would I want to be.

            As for the stfu, well it’s hardly relevant to the conversation, but like everyone I have my off days. I very much doubt you have never said stfu at some point in your life. I am very polite unless provoked. But I don’t hide anything and you are free to read it and make your own mind up.

          • Ric Ricard

            I am absolutely using my real name. My real name is John Ricard and i have been posting on the internet under that name since around 2000 or so. My website is http://www.johnricard.com. My Facebook account is composed primarily of my friends and most of them call me, “Ric”. My Facebook account links easily to Discus and that is why my name shows up here as Ric Ricard. But even if you didn’t know my name was John, if you visited my Facebook page you would see many posts there that come directly from my Instagram account, @johnricard. So it wouldn’t take you more than a few seconds to figure out my “real” name. Also, I should add, I’ve actually started an Instagram account under the name Ric Ricard (@ricinaction) because so many people know me that way and I’ve even had several magazine credits (Jiu Jitsu Style Magazine, and Jiu Jitsu Magazine and a recent feature on FloGrappling.com) under the name “Ric Ricard”, so that is indeed becoming as much of a “real” name for me as is John Ricard. Again, there are hundreds of people who know me personally as “Ric”.

            As for insulting people. I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone a name on the internet ever. But even if I did, it’s a simple matter for anyone to track me down and confront me since I’ve always posted under my real name. The reason I am saying YOU wouldn’t say “stfu”to someone face is because you aren’t doing it. You’re hiding behind a fake name without so much as a photograph of who you are.

            I’m not trying to poke holes in your character. I’m just trying to make you understand that when someone says they “need” more than 36 megapixels we need some sort of context in which to judge that statement. If that came from a working photographer who shoots something similar to the reader of that comment, then maybe its time for the reader to look into moving to a 36 megapixel camera. Again, if a headshot shooter who is at the top of his game, like Peter Hurley said, “NY clients are starting to demand 36 megapixel files”, then I think it would be wise for other headshot photographers to considering moving to 36 megapixels. But if some random, anonymous internet poster writes that he “needs” 36 megapixels, but he doesn’t provide any context for that statement, then I think its wise to just ignore the comment.

    • Roberto Solari

      Best solution would be 24mp & 36mp versions.

  • Brennan McKissick

    24mp is spot on. I’d still be happy with the file sizes from the M9 generation but I know that’ll never happen. I just want to see a *better* sensor with the same 24mp count.

    • CHD

      I just want to see a better sensor with 36mp count. Preferably improved DR and 16 bit colour….that for me would be the perfect sensor for the M. It’s 2016 ….36mp files are not ‘big’ anymore relative to today’s computers.

      • Brennan McKissick

        I just hope the rangefinder focusing system is accurate enough for higher resolution mp counts.

        • CHD

          …which is why I would actually prefer a ‘Q’ type camera that would accept M mount lenses.

          • I think eventually they will make one in the future.

          • R R Diaz

            A Leica SL in a Q frame…yummy.

  • eric

    i shoot with 36mp and for landscapes, where everything blends, its great…but i do notice when shooting on the street it picks up a lot of detail, even tiny dust…some people may like that but i can see the benefit of having less mp’s…just depends on what you shoot and how much detail you really want…whatever leica chooses im sure will be great…

  • William Bridge

    I hope they stick with 24mp.

  • TomV

    I vote for 24MP. I’d like the EVF spec’d from the SL or better, as an optional remotely attached accessory for non-street photography needs with adapted lenses. Some others on other threads claim the SL is selling well… I have my doubts, but I bet quite a few of those SL user are actually M users looking for a better body to shoot their M and R glass on than Sony, which is my own case.

    • R R Diaz

      Voting for 24mp as well!

  • Les

    Teemu,

    All that thread says is that the Kolari mod isn’t quite as good as Leica’s sensor with Leica wides in the corners, and it’s worse than the unmodified Sony sensor using native lenses.
    Hardly seems worth it when you can get a used M or M9 for less money than a modified Sony.

    • Fiske

      Yeah, I have an M9 and A7r2 — and the wide Leica lenses just don’t cut it on the Sony. It’s a great sensor and I love it with the 50 Lux, but it goes downhill as you get shorter from there.

      • Teemu Kustila

        I take it you have a stock A7r2 and not kolari modified?

        Here is also an interesting topic about corner performance:
        http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1453834

      • Tom

        Lenses like the 21mm Loxia on the A7R made me forget all about Leica wide angles on my Monochrom. The dedicated FE mount wides are darned good. Even the Sony 28mm f2 FE is startlingly good IMO

    • Teemu Kustila

      Hi Les.

      My previous post was not about Leica vs Sony per say, but mostly about which sensor to prefer: one user expressed desire to use a low megapixel one (e.g. Nikon D5) vs a higher one (Sony A7r II). And my clear choice would be the higher megapixel one for Leica. Especially when and if it’s a BSI sensor. This is of course just speculation since neither of these sensors are going to end up in next M. And just because on sensor has higher megapixels doesn’t mean it’s worse at high ISO. E.g. A7r (36 MP) is about 1 stop better than M (type 240) on high ISO.

      Anyway speaking of Kolari mod for A7r II. There are some lenses which indeed perform not that great wide open even on Kolari Mod (e.g. Summicron 35 ASPH Version #1 is a difficult lens). I know for fact of all the M lenses I have they work perfectly on Kolari mods. And you have to dig much deeper to see the examples on Fredmiranda. But for most M lenses on a7r II with Kolari Mod shows massive improvements over non-kolari modified A7r II when using Leica M lenses. In addition thanks to BSI sensor the vignetting and color casts are also practically non existent which is also remarkable! As you probably know Leica deals with this by software corrections. So not bad result for a Sony sensor which has not sensor toppings optimized for Leica M lenses. So that is why I would be so excited if Leica one day gets their hands on BSI sensor technology. And for the record SL also performs slightly worse than M, resolution wise, with M lenses due to slightly thicker filter stack. Granted the difference is tiny but it’s still there.

      As for M9: it would not be a feasible solution for me. M9 is totally obsolete for my needs, no Live View, no optional EVF is a major turn off. Lenses like Summilux 75 benefit greatly from these. Also the dynamic range of CCD sensors are lagging behind CMOS ones. M9 is 2 stops worse than M 240. To me that’s huge difference. Not to mention the high ISO capability. M 240 used is still about 3500-4500 € depending on condition. M-P is little more. It’s still a lot of money. Granted A7r II + Kolari Mod is not exactly feasible solution either as the body and Kolari mod would be close to 3000 € and you would loose warranty for the body. In addition you would introduce some color profile issues after the mod, but that’s a different topic. And you are right about native glass going worse. But since I would use only M lenses that would not be an issue for me.

      So anyway my main point remains: I wish Leica would go for higher megapixel, 30-36 MP is my wish. When ever I make a big print, e.g. >100×70 cm, I still think the A7r prints look bit better than my M prints. I still think the myth about 24 MP being the sweet spot for full frame 35mm sensors is an internet myth and nothing more. Technology goes forward for sensors. Some people express concerns about rangefinder not being precise on 36 MP. While it’s a valid concern I don’t think it makes a difference here. If your RF is out of alignment with 36 MP it’s also out of alignment with 24 MP. That is just a weakness of RF system. You just have to deal with the fact that occasionally you have to send the body for calibration. That said I now believe next M is going to stick with 24 MP but for different reasons. Leica made a tactical mistake of keeping the S 007 at 37.5 MP so it would seem they don’t want to jeopardize the sales of S007s by an equal resolution M. Or perhaps CMOSIS (insert the sensor provider here) has not yet developed a higher resolution CMOS sensor for Leica. I hope to be wrong, though 🙂

  • Bo Dez

    John, that is a long post to someone you are ‘just ignoring’. You seem a principled person which is fine, but I don’t share your view and I don’t share your need to try and twist the world into an image of myself. You are free to read my comments, read my history, take it on board or ignore me.

    • Ric Ricard

      It isn’t your POST that I am ignoring. It is your opinion. In the past few years, I’ve seen a lot of professional photographers whom I respect sing the praises of Fuji cameras. Guys like Jeremy Cowart, Zack Arias and a couple of others. This made me take some time to investigate these cameras and see if they were right for me. If a bunch of anonymous dudes like you suddenly started to sing the praises of a certain piece of gear, it wouldn’t affect me at al. I would, however, still respond in lengthy posts on this forum, because I do enjoy doing that.

      • Bo Dez

        I think we are here for different reasons John.

        • Ric Ricard

          I believe this is the only forum I participate in these days. I enjoy posting here and reading the various posts on this blog. That is why I am here. It is a nice distraction from my work. Perhaps you may be here for a higher purpose.

          • Bo Dez

            If I had the camera I need I would use the internet a lot less.

  • Fiske

    Yes, stock… Thanks for the link!

  • yama naka

    limited edition Noctilux

    Any news ? I expect 0.95 lens with Classic 1.2 style.

  • Chris Sellers

    …I think that the architecture of the pixels on the sensor, combined with the relatively “modest” pixel count (by today’s inflated standards) produce some very high resolution images. Perhaps a move up to the low 30’s might be welcome but 24 megapixels for the Leica M240, M246 and the M10 seems to have hit the “sweet spot” for me. Combined with a half decent lens (I generally use the older Leica lenses, such as the f 2.8 35mm Summaron for landscapes, for example) I am very, very happy with the results and the resolution of the new M10 sensor.

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