Leica is rumored to announce another camera with TL-mount and EVF


I already reported that Leica is expected to announce another camera by the end of the year. The new model will be made in Germany and was already registered with the Indonesian telecommunication agency under the code name 7323. Here is some additional information I received in the past few days:

  • Announcement/release date rumored for November
  • Code name "Clooney"
  • Same 24MP ASP-C sensor from the TL2
  • Interchangeable lens camera with TL-mount
  • Built-in EVF

Leica is also rumored to announce new TL lenses and adapters. A new Noctilux M 75mm f/1.25 ASPH lens is also expected.

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  • waaaaat???? …
    maybe I need to sell my TL2… for this….

  • Aiden

    WTF?I was expecting a new leica Q could be released,and another TL???You got to be joking!!!

    • It’s too early for a new Q

      • Thought it’s too early for another TL!

        • I think Leica sees potential growth in the TL system. The S and SL are too big and too expensive. They probably don’t get many new customers for the M – just a existing M owners looking to upgrade. The Q was a big success, so they want to build on that.

          • snappyuk

            The other advantage to Leica of TL over Q is that once you’ve bought the Q, there isn’t much else to buy. With an ILC you can sell lenses and adapters to keep the $$$ rolling in.

          • Yes, I don’t see many improvements they can do on the Q. Yes, they can add 4k and improve the LCD and EVF, but that’s about it. They can also release a 50mm version Q but I doubt they will do that.

          • eric

            They could add 36mp too…i think it’s more likely they make a 35mm version of the Q than a 50.

          • well Leica doesn’t have a 36MP sensor yet – they did not even put a 36MP in the SL

          • RONIT

            I think the way Leica is going, better and better ISO performance at 24MP, they can easily bump it up to 36MP for that extra res images with more detail.

          • I think they will need a new processor for that. They just managed to process 24MP fast enough with the M10. SL and TL2.

          • Isn’t it the same processor as the S? That has a 37mp sensor.

          • lobotomisedjournalist

            So why not make what everybody wants then – an interchangeable Q that takes both M lenses an an autofocus set. Why waste money on the oversized SL failure?

          • Oh yes, I would like that – AF adapters for M lenses already exists, not sure why Leica is not offering them yet. I would buy such camera on the spot – they just have to keep the Q size and weight.

          • El Aura

            Simple, if these third-party adaptors work only so-so, nobody is going to complain about them. If Leica sells them and they work only so-so, people are going to complain about them.

            If Leica were selling them, they would get much greater attention and scrutiny, as well as encounter much greater expectations.

          • jmb2560

            Same here. While some M-users may consider it unnecessary, both (silent) AF and IBIS would be beneficial to the M line.

          • El Aura

            Why does everybody want a Q with L mount and not simply a smaller SL? For once, “an ILC Q” is a bit shorter than “a Q-sized SL version” and simply pointing to an object is mentally easier than describing it [a smaller SL].

            Also implicitly, there is the expectation that an ILC Q would cost a similar amount as the Q (which is about half the SL), the former even includes a lens. But let me ask you, why does the SL cost that much more than the Q?

            Because it has a higher-res EVF? Hardly, that might add $500 to the price. No, it’s simply because each camera costs whatever Leica thinks it can charge.

          • The high speed operation including RAW mode is probably one of the major things making it more expensive than the Q. The Q is high-speed but only while shooting JPEG.

          • El Aura

            Well, but that cannot explain a $10’200 ($6000 body + $4200 lens**) vs $4250 difference.

            ** Leica M 28 mm f/2 price

          • Well, the Nikon D5 is $6,500 and the Nikon D810 is about $3,000 so you are doubling the price to get a few extra frames per second. So really the price difference between the top end cameras isn’t that much. While this is changing with the new D850, with a frame rate about the same as the Leica SL, Nikon’s price is apparently also going up quite a bit too; Them Hogan estimates about $4k. So you can see Nikon FPS goes up but Nikon prices go up too. This seems consistent with FPS being one of the major factors that makes the SL more expensive than its rivals.

            The $7,500 price of the SL actually made sense when compared to the D5, since the GPS module is about $250 and the WiFi module about $700, so the price of the D5 + those modules is very nearly the same as the SL, which has the equivalents built in. So at $6,000 ($500 less than the D5) the SL’s price is actually not that bad.

            It’s the lens price ($2,500 for Nikon’s 24-70 versus $4,950 for Leica’s 24-90 and $2,800 versus $6,350 for the 70-200 vs the 90-290) that really kills the SL system from a price competition perspective.

          • El Aura

            Sure, and a Phase One IQ100 costs $50’000. Cameras that are employed in areas where their performance is a requirement for professional photographers can demand a premium. That includes high-end sports photography and high-end commercial photography.

            The Leica SL doesn’t bring anything special to the table in both areas. It is bought by well-off amateurs and exotically-minded professionals. The SL might have a high frame rate, but is hardly suited for sports photography that involves any moving subject (no CD AF camera is). Suggesting that the SL can be compared to a D5 in its capabilities is ridiculous.

            The point is that Leica products tends to be 50 to 100% more expensive than its Japanese competitors (and when you include lenses, it sticks closer to 100%). The Leica Q is THE exception, which at least using launch prices only was 30% more expensive than the Sony RX1 variants. And with no need to buy extra lenses, 30% is a lot more palatable than closer to 100%.

          • lobotomisedjournalist

            Yes, very good points. Where does the SL actually compete? It is a bragging rights lump for rich amateurs. The A9 wipes the floor with it.

          • I like the Leica M because it offers a different style of shooting – some like it, others don’t. I personally don’t see the appeal of the SL – yes, I am sure the glass is amazing but there are so many options is this category amd pretty much all of them are cheaper than the SL.

          • Seven_Spades

            They don’t. I think that the M/Q with traditional looks covers one base. The T/T2 is a misfire because it does not have a viewfinder so is missing out on business that Fuji is picking up. I like the idea of the true range finder(M) and a digital G2(T). I think that these two distinct product will attract different owners. Full frame manual focus for the purists and auto-focus APS-C for others. It is quite possible to envisage an L lensed camera designed for sports photography in the future. The SL and S are never going to be anything other than niche cameras.

          • RONIT

            Q has that M look, most desiable, with FF, better EVF and M mount, it will be a killer body, a digital version of the M. I think The M form factor is just right, why go so small………….

          • CHD

            I agree…many of us want a FF interchangeable lens Q. That said, I wouldn’t necessarily call the SL a failure. I recently bought a mint version for a pretty good price and I love it….just a bit bigger then I would like.

          • lobotomisedjournalist

            I don’t mean that it is a bad camera. It is operationally a delight, it just doesn’t compete, and it is not what a large number of Leica fans want – so, very little interest from existing Leica fans and no interest from newcomers who will look at the A9 and not give the SL a second glance.

          • CHD

            Really the only thing I prefer about the A9 to the SL is in-body stabilization.

          • lobotomisedjournalist

            Maybe you like the SL having viewfinder blackout, being slower to operate, having an awkward shape, and a huge, super-expensive, slow-focusing 50mm, as well as all the other myriad ways that it is weaker than the A9. Each to his own.

          • CHD

            I don’t use the massive Leica S mount 50mm…for now I use M lenses almost exclusively. Slow to operate??? I hardly think so. EVF blackout is minimal and a non-issue for me.
            The primary reason I chose an SL over the A9 is M lenses don’t perform as well on the Sony. I’m tired of using a rangefinder and want an accurate EVF with a sensor that plays well with M mount glass so the only option is an SL.

          • lobotomisedjournalist

            Yes, that does make sense. I still think I would consider getting the smaller A9 modified by Kolari though.

      • Eric

        Leica seems to be firing in all directions these days to see what sticks. As a “small” company, it will be interesting to see how truly competitive they remain with their multiple products in such a diverse market. The Vario didn’t get more than a single chance, so I’m curious to see how many chances all these products get.

        • I think the Q was/is very successful/popular.

    • Les

      I wouldn’t think of it as an other TL, but rather an other camera within the TL/SL ecosystem.
      Modern APS-C sensors can deliver more than enough quality for the majority of users (especially with the outstanding TL lenses), so why not?

    • El Aura

      Expecting as in ‘wanting’ or as in ‘predicting’?

      Leica is roughly on a three-year schedule for most of its cameras. Look at the M-line (and ignore all the versions that were merely features and parts variations):
      M8: 2006
      M9: 2009
      M(240): 2012 (Sep)
      M10: 2017 (Jan)

      X1: 2009
      X2: 2012
      X(113): 2014

      T(L): 2014
      TL2: 2017

      S2: 2009
      S: 2012
      S(007): 2015

      The longer, 4 yr & 4 months, spell between the M240 and M10 probably is due to Leica trying out several variations on the same sensor (M-P 240, M262, M Monochrom 246, Leica M Edition 60) and Leica being busy with the Q and SL, both launched in 2015.

      The classic X series appears be discontinued (B&H doesn’t offer it anymore), otherwise it would due for an update this year (eg, using the 24 MP sensor of the TL2). Currently it lives on in the waterproof X-U. Neither Ricoh or Nikon really updated their entries in that segment and Nikon has discontinued the Coolpix A.

      The Q, SL and S would be due for an update in 2018 (though the future of the S line might be in question). Sensor-wise, the M10 sensor, if my memory serves me well, is a slight to moderate improvement over the Q and SL. It could go into a Q2 and SL2 next year or they could gain a new, higher resolution sensor.

  • RONIT

    This is great, things are rolling pretty quick for Leica, guess it has been been in their minds for sometime and overdue. For me I want that new ‘Q’, I will wait and enjoy seeing what this new body is in Nov, With built in EVF, I wonder how the design will be. I hope its not a hump like sony or Fuji but on the side, if so it may look like an M, who knows.

  • eric

    Weird. Didn’t they just release the TL2?

    • Charles

      I reckon it will be quite a different form factor, more like the Leica Q, so there’s still enough to differentiate the two cameras.

      • eric

        It doesn’t make much sense to me to release a different Leica Q sized model with TL lenses…whats the point? but really, what’s the point of shooting anything other than an M if you’re going to shoot Leica. Are there really a lot of people who want a non-M leica. Just seems like over kill to make a bunch of different products that cater to an even narrower segment than the M.

  • Licheus

    They need to do this to the X.

  • 9 oz. 5 in.

    Nice I may switch from M10 to make it lighter and versatile

  • Charles

    I reckon this will be something like the form factor of the Leica Q, but as an interchangeable lens camera with TL mount.
    It’s a pity that it’s rumoured to be APS-C, and that we’ll still need the SL body for full frame mirrorless.

    • A smaller SL will be welcomed, but then again the SL lenses are huge.

      • It would be nice to have a f/2.8-f/4 APS-C lens like Fuji does instead of the current f/3.5-5.6. That’s one thing that definitely favors Fuji over Leica.

        Leica build quality seems much higher than Fuji, and the software looks a lot better. I remember thinking the Fuji menu system wasn’t that great. But sometimes you really need faster lenses. Also cheaper ones; the Leica camera is pretty close in price to the Fuji but lenses are almost triple the price. Ouch.

      • lobotomisedjournalist

        Only because of an utterly stupid marketing/design decision at Leica. Who needs huge, super-quality, massive lenses on a overlarge camera with only 24 mp? The S was already there for those who need bragging rights of IQ, which might have sold more had they focused on getting it to work effectively and upped it’s pixel count – as it was they went from one failed and poorly implemented fiasco (the S) to another ( the SL). They don’t need two bazookas.

        I’ve heard hundreds of users who want a Q-sized interchangeable lens system camera that takes both M lenses and has its own high-quality but reasonably-sized range of AF lenses, which Leica could have had in place by now had they not wasted their resourses with the poorly selling SL. And now more of this TL stuff! Leica are their own worst enemy.

        • Yes, I agree. The whole point of mirrorless is to be smaller, lighter and cheaper – otherwise a Nikon or Canon full frame DSLR is still superior. Yes, the SL should have been a medium format mirrorless camera – then it would have made more sense (to me at least).

          • wiep

            SL is certainly smaller lighter than CaNi pro ff. Why should it be cheaper? I like the fact that it’s a Leica and good looking. Makes people ask about my camera. Nothing wrong with that. A couple of relatively small primes would be nice though. And I can assure you that besides the c-af Nikon is not superior. But this new one could be a nice on the side camera. Still not ff as I understand? So the q will outperform it in 28 and equal in35…?

          • I said cheaper because mirrorless cameras have less parts and should be cheaper to produce – at least this is what mirrorless companies have been saying for years.

          • wiep

            Haha, you forget that all Leica’s are extremely expensive to produce (-;

        • Christian Seidel

          The S is a studio camera.
          The SL is more a high cadence camera – high framerate used to to capture the “right” moment.
          Technology (battery capacity, Moores Law for electronics) has to advance some time (say 2 years) before a smaller SL is possible. Even then high quality optics won’t be smaller or lighter (no disruptive tech to be seen in that timeframe).
          The TL(2) is a way to sell the smaller and lighter system helped by a unique UI. It rather is on the high cadence side of things.
          The M is a camera for taking pictures deliberately aka slow aka because you know when the right moment will be in advance.
          If I were Leica and had “Clooney” with the size 134x33x74,7 mm in the works, I’d provide a cropped sensor with a UI from the Q or SL; i. e. a traditional aka analogue UI.

          • lobotomisedjournalist

            Yes, all very well, but are all these categories really so hard and fast? Is there any reason why either an updated, effective S that actually worked as it should could not also serve as a ‘high frame rate’,camera, or perhaps more likely, why a 50mp SL couldn’t just replace the S. the idea that only future technology could enable a down-sizing of the SL is belied by both the Sony A7r2 and the A9. Both have higher specs in many ways than the SL, yet are smaller and less ungainly. The A9 is even much faster, has a better battery life, has a flip up touchscreen, and is much cheaper.

            It seems to me that getting the basic concept right is the most important goal here. Many hundreds of Leica users have expressed disatisfaction with the size of the SL and mentioned that they want the Q-sized alternative. Whatever technical limitations there are can be overcome as the system develops, but starting off with an effective evf based camera for M lenses would likely be a second purchase for many M users and allow more entrants to the world of high quality small cameras. Extra, high quality af lenses could be added, keeping the size small but quality high, keeping the speed of the leneses limited at first. An af f4 tri elmar with a zoom range of 28-50 would be attractive to many. Do something different from the rest of the market and Leica would remain alone in a diffrent niche, as it is the SL with its bazooka lenses stands no chance against sony’s A9 and its up-coming variants.

          • Christian Seidel

            If SL is too heavy, S should be too heavy as well.
            Leica seems to have a different opinion wrt sturdiness. I do not know what they’d make out of an Magnesium alloy body. And I doubt it would close the weight gap to a Sony Alpha 9.
            Also, keep in mind that less weight is a theoretical option that became marketing spiel. Now looking at the Q again, that Clooney part can indeed be equiped with an FF sensor with nearly no technical penalty in a Q size body itself. However, it would be harder to position in the lineup.

  • onasj

    Clooney suggests grey-scale (monochrome), no?

    • Wilson

      It just gets finer with age

    • I see it as “good looking” 🙂

  • Ric Ricard

    Would be interesting to make a T body that was designed exactly like the M10. It would be a true Mini M. I believe Leica once trie to position the X Vario as a Mini M, but it really wasn’t.

    • ZMWT

      No chance. If it’s an addition to the TL2 range, then it will minimise cost by following same design at the TL2, with eventually a minor tweak (integrated pop up EVF instead of pop up flash) …

      • David Lingle

        Or using the Q body

  • Well, during the TL2 announcement, people seemed to be really desperate for a built-in EVF, so perhaps this is a slightly modified TL2 with room for the EVF, designed to make EVF-loving customers happy.

    Since Leica has been impressing people with the quality of their EVF, maybe this brings the SL or Q EVF to a mini interchangeable lens form factor. It strikes me that many people here could like that a lot.

    If the camera isn’t that different from the TL2 maybe it’s not that expensive to make a TL2 variant with the same basic components just rearranged, in the same way it has been cost-effective for GM to make Chevy and Cadillac versions of the same car. Spreading the costs of the camera’s electronics and optical systems between multiple models is bound to make sense if they are distinct in ways that are appealing to consumers.

    It does seem strange they couldn’t have just made the TL2 with the EVF. That was, after all, what the public was pretty much clamoring for. Better late than never?

    Perhaps the Q EVF would have required a much higher price and so they wanted to split off the two models? Visoflex is $500, if my memory serves. If this new EVF is $1,000 that would make the TL2 cost prohibitive for many people and so it would make sense to split it into two models, for $1,950 without the EVF and $2,950 with. That would make sense considering the price of the Q and SL with the superior EVFs.

    • I think before the TL2 announcement I did not understand that there will be two new TL cameras – this is why we got confused with he EVF. I was basically reporting rumors about two new cameras without knowing it.

      • ZMWT

        So, is this new camera larger by 5mm? If that’s the case, it may have a pop-up integrated EVF?

        • Yes, I think that registration was for the new camera. I got mixed up with the TL2 which is the same size as the TL. At that point I thought there will be only one new camera with TL mount. The latest rumors point to a second camera with TL mount and EVF. Now everything else makes sense.

  • Andrew Hansen

    Odds this camera will support IBIS??

  • I forgot to mention that Leica is rumored to announce new TL adapters as well.

    • Tim Rule

      Adapters for what? Are they going to adapt Fuji or Sony APS-C lenses …

      • Yes, adapters to use other lenses on the TL mount.

        • Tim Rule

          You mean, other as in _non_ Leica lenses? Unless, Panasonic is bringing a new APS-C camera and Leica will rebadge it … and offer the usual Leica branded Panasonic lenses.

          A second APS-C system camera … has Leica all but given up?

          I hope you are wrong on both counts, and that a new compact X or Q camera is in the works! But somehow I think you will be right 🙂

          • Yes, I think they want to be able to use all of your existing lenses on the TL, just like Sony. I don’t see a reason for that but it seems that some people do and it’s a thing now.

  • Maurice

    Hello guys, I suggest they will call it “Leica CL” and it will be a marriage between the Leica X, Leica Q and Leica TL series. So basically a compact system camera with TL mount, that has a more conservative appearance than the TL – traditional dials and a more M-like styling. Maybe they keep the two dials on the upper right and label them just like the Leica X series: the left for the shutter, the right for the aperture numbers. It makes sense since there aren´t aperture rings on the TL lenses and you can dial everything with the right hand. Add a free programmable front and back dial for e.g. ISO and exposure compensation und you´ve got a perfect street camera that can be used just with the right hand. In the future it will be:
    Leica CL: compact more retro style street camera (Fuji X-series killer)
    Leica TL: Apple-like camera with minimalistic appealing (unique in the market)
    Leica SL: professional mirrorless full frame camera (in the future they should implement the dual IS system by Panasonic and better video)

  • Steven Kornreich

    To be honest if Leica did come out with something like this it would kill TL /TL2 sales. What is the #1 complaint about the TL/TL2? No built in EVF.
    Why would Leica poor resources into the new TL2 while at the same time be working on a new APS-C TL mount with EVF camera. Makes no sense to me

    • Maurice

      Well if it uses the same components as the TL2 the TL2 hasn´t cost a lot of money, since it has the exact body design as the T and TL, so they can use economies of scale and make the TL2 a cheaper entry level model when the new one with built in EVF will be announced. They can price the TL2 at about 1400€ (+ 600€ for the EVF) and the model with built in EVF, call it “CL” at about 2500€.

      • Steven Kornreich

        Im just bummed that the TL2 was not this maybe soon to be released camera. I just sold my SL w/h 24-90 zoom, loved the camera, just at the end of the day just to heavy. Looking forward to this release

    • Licheus

      No it won’t, as it’ll cost twice as much as a regular TL.

    • 1.000€ or perhaps more.

    • Dr.S

      TL & TL2 is already death.

      • an691

        Leica is, in fact

  • Ben Woodard

    I sure hope this is true. It wouldn’t be that hard for Leica to do. The camera could just be the same electronics as the TL2 + EVF in a slightly different case. Instead of taking the wires that drive the EVF to the hot shoe, they hard wire them to the electronics of the EVF which is mounted inside the case of the camera. The design differences would be minimal. It would just be a new CNC program to mill the case and a few new flex cables inside the camera to route to a different place on the case.

  • Seven_Spades

    This is simply brilliant news. I have held off buying because this is what I wanted. I looked at the Fuji and Panasonic cameras. I don’t want an M10 (Too big), don’t want a TL without EVF, considering the SONY. Now I have a reason to wait to see what Leica will offer. I sold my Digilux 2 about 2 years ago with great sadness, I loved its lens but hated the low resolution and low light performance.

  • An X Vario with interchangeble lens and the new sensor would be fine.

  • William Bridge

    Hello Peter. Any news about this rumors ? Can’t wait to get more info…especially on the lens lineup !

  • John Armstrong-Millar

    makes perfect sense. A mini Q with interchangeable lenses. Protects the M series from cannibalisation

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